a school is not a building

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a school is not a building

Timothy Falconer-5
Hi all,

A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks and mortar".

http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp

Thanks,
Tim

--
Timothy Falconer
Waveplace Foundation
http://waveplace.org
+ 1 610 797 3100 x33




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Re: [realness] a school is not a building

bernie
On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
> and mortar".
>
> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp

It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.

The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
for this problem.

--
   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
 \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/

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Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Ian Thomson
Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
there are laptops.

The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
schools.
This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.

As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
students.
Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.

Ian Thomson
ICT Outreach Section
Economic Development Division
Secretariat of the Pacific Community
B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
New Caledonia

Phone +687-265419

Fax +687 26 38 18
http://www.spc.int

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
To: Timothy Falconer
Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
[hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
> and mortar".
>
> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp

It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.

The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
for this problem.

--
   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
 \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/

_______________________________________________
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
[hidden email]
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

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Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Caryl Bigenho
Don't forget the possibility of using the laptops to tailor the learning experience to fit the individual needs of each learner.  With proper training, and planning, teachers can learn to do this easily in ways that will help all students achieve their highest potential. Of course, a more work needs to be done on finding ways to do this with the Sugar Activities so that teachers will be able to do this.

Caryl

> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 10:04:31 +1100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>
> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
> Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
> there are laptops.
>
> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
> schools.
> This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>
> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
> locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
> students.
> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
> to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.
>
> Ian Thomson
> ICT Outreach Section
> Economic Development Division
> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
> New Caledonia
>
> Phone +687-265419
>
> Fax +687 26 38 18
> http://www.spc.int
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
> To: Timothy Falconer
> Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
> [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>
> On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > A favor: help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
> > more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
> > and mortar".
> >
> > http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>
> It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
> the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
> learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.
>
> The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
> home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
> inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
> for this problem.
>
> --
> // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
> \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

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Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Edward Cherlin
In reply to this post by Ian Thomson
What he said. I hate false dichotomies. They abound in discussions of
education and in the politics of education, indeed in any situation
where the more extreme the position, the more likely it is to be
heard.

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 18:04, Ian Thomson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
> Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
> there are laptops.
>
> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
> schools.
> This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>
> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
> locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
> students.
> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
> to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.
>
> Ian Thomson
> ICT Outreach Section
> Economic Development Division
> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
> New Caledonia
>
> Phone +687-265419
>
> Fax +687 26 38 18
> http://www.spc.int
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
> To: Timothy Falconer
> Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
> [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>
> On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
>> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
>> and mortar".
>>
>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>
> It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
> the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
> learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.
>
> The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
> home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
> inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
> for this problem.
>
> --
>   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
>  \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



--
Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
http://www.earthtreasury.org/
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Re: [realness] RE: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

bernie
In reply to this post by Ian Thomson
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 10:04 +1100, Ian Thomson wrote:
> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never
> convince Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just
> because there are laptops.

Sure, but Tim's appeal was probably not addressed to the MoE of Haiti.

Developing countries offer great opportunities to innovate in education
by augmenting or replacing a public school system which is
under-financed and under-staffed.

Paraguay Educa, for example, could completely transform the school
district of Caacupé, in spite of political opposition from the MoE.
Parents, students and teachers were so supportive that, eventually, the
government was forced to release a small amount of funds to sustain the
project for the next year.

Things can grow to national scale at a later time, but when it comes to
proving the validity of an innovative idea on the ground, I trust small
NGOs such as Waveplace and Paraguay Educa because they're not held back
by unions, politics and bureaucracy.


> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
> schools. This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>
> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
> locations.

In at least one OLPC deployment ran by the MoE, the decision makers were
reluctant to let students take their laptops home with them. What if
some laptops get damaged or stolen? The predominant mindset was to
protect these expensive machines from the children.


> This will free up the school to take a second shift of students.
> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working
> together to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.

I think this is a good suggestion. I don't know what it's like in Haiti,
but in all the deployments I visited, schools already had 2 or even 3
shifts. One logistic problem is that children can't stay around to work
in groups if the classrooms are already occupied by students of the next
shift. Once they scatter to their homes, collaboration becomes harder.

--
   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
 \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/

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Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Blake Elias
In reply to this post by Edward Cherlin
It's not that Ministries of Education should *stop* their core
activities, but another possibility to consider before *starting*.

A physical school where children can learn and work together is
wonderful.  In some situations where it's a struggle to build a
physical school, where it really may be a dichotomy between
buildings/laptops because of the expense, maybe they want to make
digital collaboration their main goal instead of building with brick
and mortar.

Blake Elias

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Edward Cherlin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What he said. I hate false dichotomies. They abound in discussions of
> education and in the politics of education, indeed in any situation
> where the more extreme the position, the more likely it is to be
> heard.
>
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 18:04, Ian Thomson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
>> Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
>> there are laptops.
>>
>> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
>> schools.
>> This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>>
>> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
>> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
>> locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
>> students.
>> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
>> to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.
>>
>> Ian Thomson
>> ICT Outreach Section
>> Economic Development Division
>> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
>> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
>> New Caledonia
>>
>> Phone +687-265419
>>
>> Fax +687 26 38 18
>> http://www.spc.int
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
>> To: Timothy Falconer
>> Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
>> [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
>>> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
>>> and mortar".
>>>
>>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>>
>> It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
>> the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
>> learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.
>>
>> The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
>> home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
>> inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
>> for this problem.
>>
>> --
>>   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
>>  \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: [realness] Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Kenneth Adam
Maybe it’s a good idea to go for "digital collaboration", or at least laptop-based/ e-learning, instead of bricks and mortar when resources are scarce, but maybe not. The problem is that a proper evidence base to support the proposition still doesn't exist, as far as I know, which is why it will remain an extremely hard sell to any responsible Ministry of Education.

This shows us why a scientific and independent study of the benefits (as in cost-benefit analysis) needs to be undertaken in a wide range of settings, establishing the educational value of such interventions (as compared to the effectiveness/ value of traditional interventions). Undoubtedly concentrating resources on e-learning may make good sense in some situations, and bad sense in others, depending on local environmental conditions and the costs involved.

In any case, I would agree with Ian Thomson that OLPC is best viewed as something which can augment and support traditional teaching models, sometimes helping to bridge capacity gaps, rather than as something which could/should replace them. Apart from anything else, school is fun for most children (those that are lucky enough to have a place in a school), not to mention offering a possibility for women to have a professional life in the years after child-bearing, so it would be a sad thing if schools became obsolete because some of us got carried away with ideas of digital utopia!

Just my $0.02...

Ken


Kenneth Adam
Project and Program Management Office (PMO)
Afghanistan Information Management Services (AIMS)
Tel: 0093 (0) 796 311 256
www.aims.org.af


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Blake Elias
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 6:22 AM
To: Edward Cherlin
Cc: Ian Thomson; Timothy Falconer; [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC; [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP; Bernie Innocenti; [hidden email]
Subject: [realness] Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

It's not that Ministries of Education should *stop* their core
activities, but another possibility to consider before *starting*.

A physical school where children can learn and work together is
wonderful.  In some situations where it's a struggle to build a
physical school, where it really may be a dichotomy between
buildings/laptops because of the expense, maybe they want to make
digital collaboration their main goal instead of building with brick
and mortar.

Blake Elias

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Edward Cherlin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What he said. I hate false dichotomies. They abound in discussions of
> education and in the politics of education, indeed in any situation
> where the more extreme the position, the more likely it is to be
> heard.
>
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 18:04, Ian Thomson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
>> Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
>> there are laptops.
>>
>> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
>> schools.
>> This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>>
>> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
>> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
>> locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
>> students.
>> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
>> to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.
>>
>> Ian Thomson
>> ICT Outreach Section
>> Economic Development Division
>> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
>> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
>> New Caledonia
>>
>> Phone +687-265419
>>
>> Fax +687 26 38 18
>> http://www.spc.int
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
>> To: Timothy Falconer
>> Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
>> [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
>>> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
>>> and mortar".
>>>
>>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>>
>> It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
>> the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
>> learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.
>>
>> The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
>> home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
>> inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
>> for this problem.
>>
>> --
>>   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
>>  \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep


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Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Dr. Gerald Ardito
In reply to this post by Blake Elias
I think back to the various work (especially Piaget, Vygotsky, and Papert) that investigates learning as a social phenomenon.
The XO Laptops and Sugar derive directly, in my humble opinion, from these principles, especially Papert's concept of Constructionism.
The issue for me, then, is not schools versus laptops (or some other technology), but how these devices and their software can be used to shape the learning environment itself. 
I have seen classrooms in my school change (in terms of student independence) as a result of the students being deeply engaged with the XOs and Sugar. This change has been reflected in both the students and their teachers. 
I think more focus should be spent on this ecosystem of learning.

Best,
Gerald

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Blake Elias <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's not that Ministries of Education should *stop* their core
activities, but another possibility to consider before *starting*.

A physical school where children can learn and work together is
wonderful.  In some situations where it's a struggle to build a
physical school, where it really may be a dichotomy between
buildings/laptops because of the expense, maybe they want to make
digital collaboration their main goal instead of building with brick
and mortar.

Blake Elias

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Edward Cherlin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What he said. I hate false dichotomies. They abound in discussions of
> education and in the politics of education, indeed in any situation
> where the more extreme the position, the more likely it is to be
> heard.
>
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 18:04, Ian Thomson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
>> Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
>> there are laptops.
>>
>> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
>> schools.
>> This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>>
>> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
>> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
>> locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
>> students.
>> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
>> to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.
>>
>> Ian Thomson
>> ICT Outreach Section
>> Economic Development Division
>> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
>> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
>> New Caledonia
>>
>> Phone +687-265419
>>
>> Fax +687 26 38 18
>> http://www.spc.int
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
>> To: Timothy Falconer
>> Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
>> [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
>>> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
>>> and mortar".
>>>
>>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>>
>> It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
>> the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
>> learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.
>>
>> The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
>> home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
>> inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
>> for this problem.
>>
>> --
>>   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
>>  \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
_______________________________________________
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
[hidden email]
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep


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Re: [realness] Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

bernie
In reply to this post by Kenneth Adam
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 11:07 +0430, Kenneth Adam wrote:
> Maybe it’s a good idea to go for "digital collaboration", or at least
> laptop-based/ e-learning, instead of bricks and mortar when resources
> are scarce, but maybe not. The problem is that a proper evidence base
> to support the proposition still doesn't exist, as far as I know,
> which is why it will remain an extremely hard sell to any responsible
> Ministry of Education.

There are already plenty of studies on OLPC and OLPC-like projects
around the world. Results vary wildly, and it's hard to draw a
conclusion.

This can be read in many ways. In my opinion, it shows that cultural
factors and local implementation strategies count more than the
particular hardware and software combination.

One of the reports I've seen, thicker than a phonebook, was particularly
superficial. It talked about "more use of the computer" in generic
terms, without mentioning the specific Sugar activities. It was clearly
done by people who had very little understanding of the software.

OTOH, the platform is also evolving very rapidly. I wouldn't be
surprised if results of students who used Sugar 0.82 on the XO-1 were
much worse than Sugar 0.88 on the XO-1.5. We can expect both the
software and the hardware to continue evolving very quickly for a few
more years.

For all these reasons, it's probably too early to demand objective and
conclusive evidence. Wait another 3 years.

--
   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
 \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/

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Re: [squeakland] a school is not a building

Kim Rose-2
In reply to this post by Timothy Falconer-5
Why does it have to be one or the other -- "instead"???????  I'd build  
a case to try to find a way of supporting both.

Kim Rose
Viewpoints Research

On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:18 AM, Timothy Falconer wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once  
> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks  
> and mortar".
>
> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
> --
> Timothy Falconer
> Waveplace Foundation
> http://waveplace.org
> + 1 610 797 3100 x33
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

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Re: [realness] Re: [squeakland] a school is not a building

Mike Dawson-2
Hi All,

Well for education, as with anything, there is a limited amount of
resources available.  However this does not mean one or the other -
there are various forms of blended learning.

In my humble opinion the answer to persuade people is very simple -
independent research.  Look concretely at what are the objectives of the
education system supposed to be?  To impart a certain core body of
knowledge?  To impart certain skills (learn learning?).  To enable
children to think creatively?  To enable children to become productive
employable members of society?  Now devise measurements of those factors
and compare.

The research has to compare the cost and time required for conventional
approaches that could involve teacher training, schools, bricks, to the
OLPC / technology enabled approach.

School and everyone going to school is a critical social activity - call
me old fashioned but my favourite form of kids collaborating is by
talking to each other, in person!  

In reality school time is so short anyway in many developing countries
(here in Afghanistan 2 - 2.5hrs/day half the year) that OLPC is a needed
supplement to missing human and physical resources.

None of what we're looking to accomplish really needs computers.
Teachers sufficiently trained and capable with sufficient resources
which would take generations could accomplish the task.  The question is
the relative cost and time to deliver.

And it's not just laptops and hardware that one needs - it's content,
infrastructure and support.  Which can get costly.

One piece of research to consider is the appendix to a US Dept of
Education "Evaluation of Evidence Based Practices in Online Learning"
May 2009 - has a fair bit of discussion.  Interestingly enough even
where it cites that there is little difference between those taking part
in blended or purely online activities and the conventional version that
in itself could be evidence of it being at least as effective, which if
the bricks and mortar are not there, is a big improvement.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

-Mike

On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 12:28 +0700, Kim Rose wrote:

> Why does it have to be one or the other -- "instead"???????  I'd build  
> a case to try to find a way of supporting both.
>
> Kim Rose
> Viewpoints Research
>
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:18 AM, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once  
> > more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks  
> > and mortar".
> >
> > http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> > Timothy Falconer
> > Waveplace Foundation
> > http://waveplace.org
> > + 1 610 797 3100 x33
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > squeakland mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>


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Re: a school is not a building

Timothy Falconer-5
In reply to this post by Timothy Falconer-5
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the terrific responses.  Started some great conversations at Waveplace.  

Here's a follow-up post with more details:

http://bit.ly/hQhHtS

Take care,
Tim

--
Timothy Falconer
Waveplace Foundation
http://waveplace.org
+ 1 610 797 3100 x33




On Dec 5, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Timothy Falconer wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead of bricks and mortar".
>
> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
> --
> Timothy Falconer
> Waveplace Foundation
> http://waveplace.org
> + 1 610 797 3100 x33
>
>
>
>

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Re: a school is not a building

Timothy Falconer-6
Hi folks,

Response #2, with some school cost numbers.  This post was partly in response to Kim's question and Mike Dawson's insightful response:

http://bit.ly/eg1aJu

Take care,
Tim

--
Timothy Falconer
Immuexa Corporation
http://immuexa.com
+ 1 610 797 3100 x33




On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Timothy Falconer wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks for the terrific responses.  Started some great conversations at Waveplace.  
>
> Here's a follow-up post with more details:
>
> http://bit.ly/hQhHtS
>
> Take care,
> Tim
>
> --
> Timothy Falconer
> Waveplace Foundation
> http://waveplace.org
> + 1 610 797 3100 x33
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead of bricks and mortar".
>>
>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tim
>>
>> --
>> Timothy Falconer
>> Waveplace Foundation
>> http://waveplace.org
>> + 1 610 797 3100 x33
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [ht2011-winter] Re: a school is not a building

Timothy Falconer-5
Hi folks,

Response #2, with some school cost numbers.  This post was partly in response to Kim's question and Mike Dawson's insightful response:

http://bit.ly/eg1aJu

Take care,
Tim

--
Timothy Falconer
Immuexa Corporation
http://immuexa.com
+ 1 610 797 3100 x33




On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Timothy Falconer wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks for the terrific responses.  Started some great conversations at Waveplace.  
>
> Here's a follow-up post with more details:
>
> http://bit.ly/hQhHtS
>
> Take care,
> Tim
>
> --
> Timothy Falconer
> Waveplace Foundation
> http://waveplace.org
> + 1 610 797 3100 x33
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2010, at 3:18 PM, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead of bricks and mortar".
>>
>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tim
>>
>> --
>> Timothy Falconer
>> Waveplace Foundation
>> http://waveplace.org
>> + 1 610 797 3100 x33
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [Olpc-Haiti] [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building

Elissa Carmichael-2
In reply to this post by Edward Cherlin
The needs of the kids is what we're trying to meet.  an easy way to do this find a kid and ask, 'hay, kid, what do you need?' At the very least an XO is infinitely patient and kind; forgiving and inviting.  Like He-Man says, "learning is fun and knowing is half the battle."  

homeschool, very popular in the states where school are not meeting the needs of the kids and are frequently referred to as baby sitting institutions.  Florida's notoriously incompetent schools pack students (not the admin.) into formaldehyde fume filled portables that can't withstand heavy gusts let alone tornados or hurricanes.  homeschool keeps both schools and the cops at bay.   Alas homeschool is a luxury afforded by a few fortunate families.  

schools/learning like jobs/working can be anywhere.  All jobs are not all confined to buildings nor all workers to desks or worse cubicles.  the poor field researchers wading thru the mucky marsh; the poor marine biologists or treasure hunters SCUBA diving and living on boats who knows where in the ocean; the poor archeologists excavating in dangerous conditions and/or hostile environments.  whoa the space travelers strapping themselves to rockets and shooting for the moon or space-station.  

From my humble and limited experience an offer of a laptop and tutoring has yet to be declined by even one kid & family.  They want more once they realize I have no agenda, don't try and get all in their business, make no demands of their time and resources.  Working to meet the needs of the kids seems to take away almost all the pressure to perform and eliminate the fear of failing make learning a lot of fun.  

Like He-Man says, "learning is fun and knowing is half the battle."

South Florida XO

On Dec 5, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Edward Cherlin wrote:

> What he said. I hate false dichotomies. They abound in discussions of
> education and in the politics of education, indeed in any situation
> where the more extreme the position, the more likely it is to be
> heard.
>
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 18:04, Ian Thomson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Personally, I think the whole approach is wrong. You will never convince
>> Ministries of Education to stop their "core" activities just because
>> there are laptops.
>>
>> The better approach is to show how laptops can enhance education in
>> schools.
>> This should not be an "either/or" approach. We can do both.
>>
>> As a simple example, children can leave the school earlier after
>> suitable teaching and complete work on the laptops at home or other
>> locations. This will free up the school to take a second shift of
>> students.
>> Teachers can restructure their teaching to have groups working together
>> to learn, so freeing them up to take more students.
>>
>> Ian Thomson
>> ICT Outreach Section
>> Economic Development Division
>> Secretariat of the Pacific Community
>> B.P. D5 - Noumea Cedex - 98848
>> New Caledonia
>>
>> Phone +687-265419
>>
>> Fax +687 26 38 18
>> http://www.spc.int
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bernie Innocenti
>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:36 AM
>> To: Timothy Falconer
>> Cc: [hidden email]; grassroots OLPC;
>> [hidden email]; Squeakland List; Maho 2010; IAEP;
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [realness] a school is not a building
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 15:18 -0500, Timothy Falconer wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A favor:  help me make this case (or refute it) as we prepare once
>>> more for Haiti ... "spend money on training & laptops instead bricks
>>> and mortar".
>>>
>>> http://waveplace.com/news/blog/archive/001035.jsp
>>
>> It's a beautiful thought that touches deep into my hacker spirit, but
>> the conclusion seems weak: what is it that we are advocating for? Remote
>> learning? Home-schooling? Having classes under a tree? It's unclear.
>>
>> The point that you were making with the military canteen vs cooking at
>> home metaphor is that compulsory education doesn't follow individual
>> inclinations. Then, the conclusion should state the proposed solution
>> for this problem.
>>
>> --
>>   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
>>  \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://sugarlabs.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://www.earthtreasury.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Olpc-haiti mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-haiti

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