OLPC + Sugar

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OLPC + Sugar

Michael Stone-7
Folks,

OLPC remains incredibly excited by Sugar and looks forward to a long and
productive working relationship with all the other people who share this
excitement. Look for a joint statement sometime next week on the new
ideas we developed at SugarCamp for strengthening Sugar, SugarLabs, and
our partnership.

Regards,

Michael
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Ivan Krstić-2
On Nov 27, 2008, at 2:17 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
> OLPC remains incredibly excited by Sugar and looks forward to a long  
> and
> productive working relationship with all the other people who share  
> this
> excitement.

Earlier this year, Nicholas informed both Walter and me that his plan  
was to terminate all OLPC involvement with Sugar within a year, and  
push off its stewardship to an organization that wouldn't be receiving  
OLPC funding. Since, to my knowledge, other OLPC people were not  
involved in _that_ decision, it's hard to divine whether your  
statement in this matter -- or, in fact, a statement made by anyone  
but Nicholas -- carries any weight whatsoever.

--
Ivan Krstić <[hidden email]> | http://radian.org

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Re: [IAEP] OLPC + Sugar

Edward Cherlin
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Ivan Krstić
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Nov 27, 2008, at 2:17 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
>> OLPC remains incredibly excited by Sugar and looks forward to a long
>> and
>> productive working relationship with all the other people who share
>> this
>> excitement.
>
> Earlier this year, Nicholas informed both Walter and me that his plan
> was to terminate all OLPC involvement with Sugar within a year, and
> push off its stewardship to an organization that wouldn't be receiving
> OLPC funding.

This appears to be Sugar Labs, which is indeed receiving no funding
from OLPC, contrary to a previous express promise by NN. Or so I hear.

We have a three-legged relationhip here:

OLPC Management
OLPC Community
Sugar Labs

My experience at Sugar Camp and elsewhere leads me to the notion that
Michael is correctly describing the relationship between OLPC
Community and Sugar Labs, and that there is no correct description of
the relationship of OLPC Management to anything, including itself.

> Since, to my knowledge, other OLPC people were not
> involved in _that_ decision, it's hard to divine whether your
> statement in this matter -- or, in fact, a statement made by anyone
> but Nicholas -- carries any weight whatsoever.

On the contrary, Ivan, it is NN's statements that I give no weight to.
Michael's statements carry great weight with me, considering how
thoughtful he is about making them. Whether he is correct about
anything concerning the future requires testing as usual, but I give
him points for generally knowing what he is talking about, and talking
about what he knows.
> --
> Ivan Krstić <[hidden email]> | http://radian.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep



--
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Michael Stone-7
In reply to this post by Ivan Krstić-2
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 03:16:09AM +0100, Ivan Krstić wrote:
> it's hard to divine whether your statement in this matter -- or, in
> fact, a statement made by anyone but Nicholas -- carries any weight
> whatsoever.

Such is life; I see no reason to let such doubts stop me.

For >500K kids, Sugar+OLPC is a great thing and making Sugar better is
one of the easiest ways for me to make that already great thing an even
better thing for those kids. Honestly, for the present moment, that's
enough for me.

Michael

P.S. - Would you find it helpful if I included a "force majeure" clause
in any similar remarks I make in the future?
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Re: [IAEP] OLPC + Sugar

Marco Pesenti Gritti-3
In reply to this post by Edward Cherlin
Please let's avoid speculations until the joint statement is published.

Thanks,
Marco
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Yamandu Ploskonka
In reply to this post by Edward Cherlin
Would anyone care to start a mental map or some such easier to absorb
medium that would make it clearer for the less illuminated the assorted
elements of our Natural History?

Ed mentions three legs.

Then, in a Mandelbrothian nightmare each seems to grow quite a few more,
and it's often hard to keep track and to know who actually, if any, has
any decision-making power for any specific purpose, what are the teams,
how do they connect, where do assorted flavors of community intersect...

Yama

<snip>
>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 2:17 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
>>    
>>> OLPC remains incredibly excited by Sugar and looks forward to a long
>>> and
>>> productive working relationship with all the other people who share
>>> this
>>> excitement.
>>>      
Edward Cherlin wrote:

> We have a three-legged relationhip here:
>
> OLPC Management
> OLPC Community
> Sugar Labs
>
> My experience at Sugar Camp and elsewhere leads me to the notion that
> Michael is correctly describing the relationship between OLPC
> Community and Sugar Labs, and that there is no correct description of
> the relationship of OLPC Management to anything, including itself.
>  
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Re: [Sugar-devel] OLPC + Sugar

bernie
Yamandu Ploskonka wrote:
> Ed mentions three legs.
>
> Then, in a Mandelbrothian nightmare each seems to grow quite a few more,
> and it's often hard to keep track and to know who actually, if any, has
> any decision-making power for any specific purpose, what are the teams,
> how do they connect, where do assorted flavors of community intersect...

Congratulations, Yama!  The above deserves being part of my personal
collection of quotes, side by side with Einstein, Gandhi, George
Bernard Shaw, Linus Torvalds...

--
   // Bernie Innocenti - http://www.codewiz.org/
 \X/  Sugar Labs       - http://www.sugarlabs.org/
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Edward Cherlin
In reply to this post by Yamandu Ploskonka
On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Yamandu Ploskonka <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Would anyone care to start a mental map or some such easier to absorb medium
> that would make it clearer for the less illuminated the assorted elements of
> our Natural History?
>
> Ed mentions three legs.
> Then, in a Mandelbrothian nightmare each seems to grow quite a few more, and
> it's often hard to keep track and to know who actually, if any, has any
> decision-making power for any specific purpose, what are the teams, how do
> they connect, where do assorted flavors of community intersect...

I haven't found it to be that difficult.

o Sugar Labs has defined itself fairly clearly.

o The OLPC volunteers are out doing software development,
localization, and other essential tasks with extensive public
discussion. It seems likely that most of the software development will
move over to Sugar Labs, leaving behind OFW, drivers, and such. People
are working on transferring some of the servers.

o OLPC management and staff have never communicated effectively with
the outside world. Not with volunteers, not with partner
organizations, not with the public. I am working on this problem, and
have established a tenuous connection with Nicholas and some of
management, but don't hold your breath.

o It would make sense to have a mind map of partner organizations. In
fact, SJ asked me to do something like this, and I have been thinking
about how. I can do some of it, and will need help from others. I can
get started at Mind42.com, which in our case will function as Mind4N.
We can publish the results in the Wiki from time to time.

> Yama

I invited you as an editor. You can tell us about your Latin American
connections, and get others from OLPC-SUR to contribute.

Anybody else who wants to contribute can sign up on the Mind Map page
I just made on the Sugar Labs Wiki, and e-mail me. Let us know what
you want to contribute. I'll make you an editor on the Mind Map.

>>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 2:17 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> OLPC remains incredibly excited by Sugar and looks forward to a long
>>>> and
>>>> productive working relationship with all the other people who share
>>>> this
>>>> excitement.
>>>>
>
> Edward Cherlin wrote:
>>
>> We have a three-legged relationhip here:
>>
>> OLPC Management
>> OLPC Community
>> Sugar Labs
>>
>> My experience at Sugar Camp and elsewhere leads me to the notion that
>> Michael is correctly describing the relationship between OLPC
>> Community and Sugar Labs, and that there is no correct description of
>> the relationship of OLPC Management to anything, including itself.
>>
>



--
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai
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Re: [Sugar-devel] OLPC + Sugar

Jameson "Chema" Quinn


I haven't found it to be that difficult.

o Sugar Labs has defined itself fairly clearly.

o The OLPC volunteers are out doing software development,
localization, and other essential tasks with extensive public
discussion. It seems likely that most of the software development will
move over to Sugar Labs, leaving behind OFW, drivers, and such. People
are working on transferring some of the servers. 


o OLPC management and staff have never communicated effectively with
the outside world. Not with volunteers, not with partner
organizations, not with the public. I am working on this problem, and
have established a tenuous connection with Nicholas and some of
management, but don't hold your breath.

I presume you mean to include the OLPC contractors (Tomeu, Sayamindu, Morgs) and the more available of the staff (Eben, for instance) in the general category with volunteers, since it seems clear to me that they are capable of effective communication, but also clear that they do not receive effective communication from OLPC higher-ups.

Jameson


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Re: [Sugar-devel] OLPC + Sugar

Edward Cherlin
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Jameson Chema Quinn
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> o OLPC management and staff have never communicated effectively with
>> the outside world. Not with volunteers, not with partner
>> organizations, not with the public. I am working on this problem, and
>> have established a tenuous connection with Nicholas and some of
>> management, but don't hold your breath.
>
> I presume you mean to include the OLPC contractors (Tomeu, Sayamindu, Morgs)
> and the more available of the staff (Eben, for instance) in the general
> category with volunteers, since it seems clear to me that they are capable
> of effective communication, but also clear that they do not receive
> effective communication from OLPC higher-ups.

Quite right. Thanks for the more precise and more correct restatement.

> Jameson

--
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai
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[OT] Re: [Sugar-devel] OLPC + Sugar

Yamandu Ploskonka
In reply to this post by bernie
I did see your quotes, found a few friends there.
On the one where Gandhi mentions he is a Christian (as well as other
such):  I have often mentioned that I (Yama) find Gandhi's the best
example of a Christian lifestyle in modern times.  (this is the first
time I put this in writing, though, and now it will be on record in the
internet.  I say that is good)
This is most disconcerting to many legalistic people affiliated with
that doctrine.

BTW, if I had enough strenght of character I would rather be in an
ashram environment.  I am looking forward to the opportunities that
doing stuff in Bolivia will give me to go native, at least a bit.

an as total disclosure, I am an active member of a charismatic Christian
church, have had strong bonds with traditional Catholicism (Franciscan
Polish Conventual), find Zen gives many teachings I have a lot of use
for.  I attempt to follow Christ, know I am too weak, selfish and coward
to do a good job at it, but I keep trying.

Bernie Innocenti wrote:

> Yamandu Ploskonka wrote:
>  
>> Ed mentions three legs.
>>
>> Then, in a Mandelbrothian nightmare each seems to grow quite a few more,
>> and it's often hard to keep track and to know who actually, if any, has
>> any decision-making power for any specific purpose, what are the teams,
>> how do they connect, where do assorted flavors of community intersect...
>>    
>
> Congratulations, Yama!  The above deserves being part of my personal
> collection of quotes, side by side with Einstein, Gandhi, George
> Bernard Shaw, Linus Torvalds...
>
>  
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Re: [OT] Re: [Sugar-devel] OLPC + Sugar

Edward Cherlin
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Yamandu Ploskonka <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I did see your quotes, found a few friends there. On the one where Gandhi
> mentions he is a Christian (as well as other such):  I have often mentioned
> that I (Yama) find Gandhi's the best example of a Christian lifestyle in
> modern times.  (this is the first time I put this in writing, though, and
> now it will be on record in the internet.  I say that is good)
> This is most disconcerting to many legalistic people affiliated with that
> doctrine.

Supposedly when Gandhi was asked what he thought of Christianity, he
replied, "I think it is excellent. They should try it."

> BTW, if I had enough strenght of character I would rather be in an ashram
> environment.  I am looking forward to the opportunities that doing stuff in
> Bolivia will give me to go native, at least a bit.
>
> an as total disclosure, I am an active member of a charismatic Christian
> church, have had strong bonds with traditional Catholicism (Franciscan
> Polish Conventual), find Zen gives many teachings I have a lot of use for.
>  I attempt to follow Christ, know I am too weak, selfish and coward to do a
> good job at it, but I keep trying.

That's why Paul spoke of Christ living in him. Get yourself out of the
way, and let Christ do it.

> Bernie Innocenti wrote:
>>
>> Yamandu Ploskonka wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ed mentions three legs.
>>> Then, in a Mandelbrothian nightmare each seems to grow quite a few more,
>>> and it's often hard to keep track and to know who actually, if any, has any
>>> decision-making power for any specific purpose, what are the teams, how do
>>> they connect, where do assorted flavors of community intersect...

My favorite game on the computer is gplanarity, where you are given
increasingly complex networks to untangle. I'm up to graphs with
100,000 crossings. If you look at the network of connections on Wiser
Earth, where more than 100,000 NGOs lists themselves, it's actually
much more complex than that. I heard just recently that Google is now
indexing a trillion pages (a million million, or 10^12).

>> Congratulations, Yama!  The above deserves being part of my personal
>> collection of quotes, side by side with Einstein, Gandhi, George
>> Bernard Shaw, Linus Torvalds...

I made a page for quotes on education, at
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai/Quotes. WikiQuote is also
your friend.



--
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Michael Stone-7
In reply to this post by Michael Stone-7
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 08:17:44PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
>Look for a joint statement sometime next week...

Folks,

I'm sad to report that, after a week of trying, I wasn't able to make
much progress on getting a joint statement written and published. It
seems that the people who have the authority to speak lack motivation,
that the people with the motivation to speak lack authority, and that
several bystanders believe the statement would be meaningless even if
written and published. In conclusion, unless and until this situation
changes, the prognosis does not look good to me. Back to carrying on
anyway...

Regards,

Michael

P.S. - I guess Ivan was right to question me. :)

P.P.S. - Even though I'm unsatisfied with how this has worked out so
far, I do want to thank both Ed and Chuck for the gracious reception
they gave my request to involve OLPC in drafting a statement.
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Yamandu Ploskonka
If Brezhnev and Nixon and Mao were able to publish joint statements, we
can too.
Let's not give up.

OK, there must be a couple points we agree on, like, to start, World Peace.

I couldn't have imagined something very solid at this stage - at this
point what I would see is a sort of a General Notes On An Agreement to
Start Conversations to Eventually Sit Down And See What We Can Agree On.

Now, if the motivation is really not there, then I guess we're pretty
much all wasting our time.  What kind of leadership role models do we
have among people who supposedly want kids in Developing Countries not
to repeat the failed leadership models of their elders?
If a handful of Anglo-Saxon Senior Executive s with more education than
I can shake a stick at don't care to devote a few minutes to this, then
what kind of hope do we have for those same gentlemen to lead a movement
that will help solve issues in Haiti, Afghanistan, etc???

Yama

Michael Stone wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 08:17:44PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
>  
>> Look for a joint statement sometime next week...
>>    
>
> Folks,
>
> I'm sad to report that, after a week of trying, I wasn't able to make
> much progress on getting a joint statement written and published. It
> seems that the people who have the authority to speak lack motivation,
> that the people with the motivation to speak lack authority, and that
> several bystanders believe the statement would be meaningless even if
> written and published. In conclusion, unless and until this situation
> changes, the prognosis does not look good to me. Back to carrying on
> anyway...
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
> P.S. - I guess Ivan was right to question me. :)
>
> P.P.S. - Even though I'm unsatisfied with how this has worked out so
> far, I do want to thank both Ed and Chuck for the gracious reception
> they gave my request to involve OLPC in drafting a statement.
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
>
>  
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Michael Stone-7
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 04:37:18PM -0600, Yamandu Ploskonka wrote:

> If Brezhnev and Nixon and Mao were able to publish joint statements, we  
> can too.
> Let's not give up.
>
> OK, there must be a couple points we agree on, like, to start, World Peace.
>
> I couldn't have imagined something very solid at this stage - at this  
> point what I would see is a sort of a General Notes On An Agreement to  
> Start Conversations to Eventually Sit Down And See What We Can Agree On.
>
> Now, if the motivation is really not there, then I guess we're pretty  
> much all wasting our time.  

Yama,

Thanks for your kind reply. I get the impression from the people I
talked to here that they're simply buried under other issues right now.
I'm not actually sure whether that means it would be good to try again
next week, next month, or never.

Really, I just wanted to let people know not to hold their breath. :)

Michael
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Re: OLPC + Sugar

Edward Cherlin
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Michael Stone <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 04:37:18PM -0600, Yamandu Ploskonka wrote:
>> If Brezhnev and Nixon and Mao were able to publish joint statements, we
>> can too.
>> Let's not give up.
>>
>> OK, there must be a couple points we agree on, like, to start, World Peace.
>>
>> I couldn't have imagined something very solid at this stage - at this
>> point what I would see is a sort of a General Notes On An Agreement to
>> Start Conversations to Eventually Sit Down And See What We Can Agree On.
>>
>> Now, if the motivation is really not there, then I guess we're pretty
>> much all wasting our time.
>
> Yama,
>
> Thanks for your kind reply. I get the impression from the people I
> talked to here that they're simply buried under other issues right now.

Nicholas put it to me that he does not exist until January, and the
same for all other OLPC employees working on G1G1 or Gn.

> I'm not actually sure whether that means it would be good to try again
> next week, next month, or never.

January. That's what the man said.

> Really, I just wanted to let people know not to hold their breath. :)

Yup. Breathing now. ^_^

> Michael
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--
Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai
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